Comments on: The Coming Apostasy of Latter-day Conservatives http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/ Advancing the cause of liberty in light of the restored gospel. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:31:41 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Mark http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-2167 Mark Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:51:44 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-2167 Another recent talk that was one of the most powerful anti-socialism talks was given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks entitled "Repentance and Change" - from Oct. 2003 General Conference. Another recent talk that was one of the most powerful anti-socialism talks was given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks entitled “Repentance and Change” – from Oct. 2003 General Conference.

]]> By: Camillia Olson http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-1872 Camillia Olson Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:35:07 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-1872 I believe that the restoration of faith , and families for freedom... demands that we recognize principles and precedence that do or would sustain such... and stand and defend liberty and law that would and does recognize the rights - and responsibilities of self governing people. Hold reps accountable to their oathes of office.. by organizing volunteer committees of oversight... http://S-HeritageInternationalConsultingInc.com I believe that the restoration of faith , and families for freedom… demands that we recognize principles and precedence that do or would sustain such… and stand and defend liberty and law that would and does recognize the rights – and responsibilities of self governing people. Hold reps accountable to their oathes of office.. by organizing volunteer committees of oversight…

http://S-HeritageInternationalConsultingInc.com

]]> By: Jason Robey http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-1814 Jason Robey Sun, 18 Jul 2010 08:15:01 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-1814 Jeff said, "Now the church website has no mention of a year supply and instead asks us to get as much as we can and to have a 72-hour kit. So we went from 7 years to 72 hours." This is a highly inaccurate statement. Provident Living says this: Where do I start? Start by adding a few storable items that you typically eat, storing some water that is safe to drink, and saving some money, if only a few coins each week. Then over time, expand these initial efforts—as individual circumstances allow and where permitted—by storing a longer-term supply of basics such as grains, beans, and other staples. What’s the difference between the three-month and longer-term supply items? Three-month supply items are foods that you normally eat, including canned and commercially packaged foods. Longer-term supply items are basic food items like grains and beans that have very low moisture content (about 10% or less), can be stored for long periods of time (20–30 years), and would sustain life if nothing else were available to eat. A portion of longer-term supply items may be rotated into the three-month supply. What about 72-hour kits? Church members are encouraged to prepare for adversity by building a basic supply of food, water, money, and, over time, longer-term supply items. Beyond this, Church members may choose to store additional items that could be of use during times of distress. http://providentliving.org/content/display/0,11666,7636-1-4104-1,00.html Jeff said,
“Now the church website has no mention of a year supply and instead asks us to get as much as we can and to have a 72-hour kit. So we went from 7 years to 72 hours.”

This is a highly inaccurate statement.

Provident Living says this:

Where do I start?

Start by adding a few storable items that you typically eat, storing some water that is safe to drink, and saving some money, if only a few coins each week. Then over time, expand these initial efforts—as individual circumstances allow and where permitted—by storing a longer-term supply of basics such as grains, beans, and other staples.

What’s the difference between the three-month and longer-term supply items?

Three-month supply items are foods that you normally eat, including canned and commercially packaged foods. Longer-term supply items are basic food items like grains and beans that have very low moisture content (about 10% or less), can be stored for long periods of time (20–30 years), and would sustain life if nothing else were available to eat. A portion of longer-term supply items may be rotated into the three-month supply.

What about 72-hour kits?

Church members are encouraged to prepare for adversity by building a basic supply of food, water, money, and, over time, longer-term supply items. Beyond this, Church members may choose to store additional items that could be of use during times of distress.

http://providentliving.org/content/display/0,11666,7636-1-4104-1,00.html

]]> By: Ralph Hughes http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-1713 Ralph Hughes Sat, 17 Jul 2010 03:45:58 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-1713 I consider myself as “being anxiously engaged in a good cause”, but I've learned thru the grapevine that our stake presidency considers me as “looking beyond the mark”. A few weeks ago a stake high councilman made a couple of statements to our ward that I and apparently a few others understood to mean that we members of the Church should not concern ourselves with "conspiracy theories". I have written him saying "That's good advice as long as one does not apply it to specific warnings of conspiracies (a.k.a. secret combinations) given in our scriptures and by latter-day prophets and apostles." I'm anxious to receive a reply. I consider myself as “being anxiously engaged in a good cause”, but I’ve learned thru the grapevine that our stake presidency considers me as “looking beyond the mark”.

A few weeks ago a stake high councilman made a couple of statements to our ward that I and apparently a few others understood to mean that we members of the Church should not concern ourselves with “conspiracy theories”. I have written him saying “That’s good advice as long as one does not apply it to specific warnings of conspiracies (a.k.a. secret combinations) given in our scriptures and by latter-day prophets and apostles.” I’m anxious to receive a reply.

]]> By: Randal http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-33 Randal Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:29:01 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-33 I have 2 points to make: 1) The "Samuel principle" is dangerous territory when talking to fellow members of the Church at home and meetinghouse. Every person I've ever spoken with has agreed wholeheartedly that such a principle has been evidenced time and again throughout history. However, if you bring up the possibility of such occurrences in today's Church, you immediately paint a big "I'm a nutball and question current Church leadership decisions" target on your back. This happens even when you have a strong testimony of the Restored Gospel and have frequently shared it with those around you. As such, if we are to have any impact on those around us in embracing the liberty philosophy, we must be sure to emphasize the doctrinal support for liberty and let them identify the negative trend within the Church, at least partially, on their own. 2) Keith and Kelton's opinions should not be so quickly dismissed. Several of those commenting above need to reassess what they mean by "the dole." When contextualized, the statements made by Church leaders seem to indicate present usage means unearned income (else we would talk of "wages") provided by the government. Keith's point is certainly merited. Why should his money be used by the government bureaucrats to support measures he rejects? Keith, get your money back! You didn't support their measures, so why would you let the socialists who did vote for those measures use your money? Seeking to get your money back from an entity which coerced you out of it is not living on "the dole." It is getting your money back using the only channels you are capable of as an individual citizen. If you seek more than the money which was taken from you, you are guilty of living on "the dole." Sorry so long, but one last point. Kelton's post is far more complex and illustrates how several of the above mentioned prophetic teachings are already coming to pass. I'm referring to those which indicate the welfare state imprisons people. Due to easy money provided for by the Fed, all of us suffer from the inflationary problems, especially in sectors such as education. The state is tightening up the ship and positioning itself as an even more powerful monopoly (check out the semi-hidden education finance bill which passed attached to the health reform bill recently) and seeks to force people to become increasingly subject to the whims of the state. Both you and your extended family/ward family would be financially healthier were it not for the state and would "need" government help far less, if at all. However, should other tax-payers shoulder the recompenses due to those who suffer under terrible monetary policies? There isn't an easy answer because your suffering is real and the culprit is easily identifiable. The culprit just happens to be a sleazebag who steals from others to recompense you. I don't think anyone should pass judgment on your decisions. I have 2 points to make:

1) The “Samuel principle” is dangerous territory when talking to fellow members of the Church at home and meetinghouse. Every person I’ve ever spoken with has agreed wholeheartedly that such a principle has been evidenced time and again throughout history. However, if you bring up the possibility of such occurrences in today’s Church, you immediately paint a big “I’m a nutball and question current Church leadership decisions” target on your back. This happens even when you have a strong testimony of the Restored Gospel and have frequently shared it with those around you. As such, if we are to have any impact on those around us in embracing the liberty philosophy, we must be sure to emphasize the doctrinal support for liberty and let them identify the negative trend within the Church, at least partially, on their own.

2) Keith and Kelton’s opinions should not be so quickly dismissed. Several of those commenting above need to reassess what they mean by “the dole.” When contextualized, the statements made by Church leaders seem to indicate present usage means unearned income (else we would talk of “wages”) provided by the government. Keith’s point is certainly merited. Why should his money be used by the government bureaucrats to support measures he rejects? Keith, get your money back! You didn’t support their measures, so why would you let the socialists who did vote for those measures use your money? Seeking to get your money back from an entity which coerced you out of it is not living on “the dole.” It is getting your money back using the only channels you are capable of as an individual citizen. If you seek more than the money which was taken from you, you are guilty of living on “the dole.”

Sorry so long, but one last point. Kelton’s post is far more complex and illustrates how several of the above mentioned prophetic teachings are already coming to pass. I’m referring to those which indicate the welfare state imprisons people. Due to easy money provided for by the Fed, all of us suffer from the inflationary problems, especially in sectors such as education. The state is tightening up the ship and positioning itself as an even more powerful monopoly (check out the semi-hidden education finance bill which passed attached to the health reform bill recently) and seeks to force people to become increasingly subject to the whims of the state. Both you and your extended family/ward family would be financially healthier were it not for the state and would “need” government help far less, if at all. However, should other tax-payers shoulder the recompenses due to those who suffer under terrible monetary policies? There isn’t an easy answer because your suffering is real and the culprit is easily identifiable. The culprit just happens to be a sleazebag who steals from others to recompense you. I don’t think anyone should pass judgment on your decisions.

]]> By: Joshua http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-32 Joshua Sat, 12 Jun 2010 06:09:13 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-32 I think this article is pretty much spot on. These days the Lord needs Christians who are not tossed about by every wind and wave of doctrine; who are not being made merchandise of; who have discernment and are not being deceived; who need no special teacher with some new revelation; who do not need a human shepherd to guide their every step; who do not have to depend on someone else for their happiness or spiritual strength —but who have been tested and tried and have proven that the very life of God is in them, providing grace and mercy to help in every need. Christ has been revealed not only to them, but in them. They are drawing on the strength of their inner man, according to the riches of His glory. -David Wilkerson I think this article is pretty much spot on.

These days the Lord needs Christians who are not tossed about by every
wind and wave of doctrine; who are not being made merchandise of; who
have discernment and are not being deceived; who need no special teacher
with some new revelation; who do not need a human shepherd to guide
their every step; who do not have to depend on someone else for their
happiness or spiritual strength —but who have been tested and tried and have proven that the very life of God is in them, providing grace and mercy to help in every need. Christ has been revealed not only to them, but in them. They are drawing on the strength of their inner man, according to the riches of His glory. -David Wilkerson

]]> By: slim http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-31 slim Wed, 19 May 2010 02:32:02 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-31 You people think to much. Do what you have been told from the beginning, it has all been said. Those that have taken councel from early leaders like Mckay, J.Ruben Clark and Benson years ago now know where this country is headed and how to prepair. What a blessing you have been given. " Be still and know I am God" The Lord and his prophet will never forsake those who are prepared. I know for those of you in the know this is a stretch of faith, is for me to! You people think to much. Do what you have been told from the beginning, it has all been said. Those that have taken councel from early leaders like Mckay, J.Ruben Clark and Benson years ago now know where this country is headed and how to prepair. What a blessing you have been given. ” Be still and know I am God” The Lord and his prophet will never forsake those who are prepared. I know for those of you in the know this is a stretch of faith, is for me to!

]]> By: Bryan http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-30 Bryan Wed, 05 May 2010 03:00:54 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-30 Kelton, though I understand the feeling, I think the premise of needing x amount of $ is false. Did not the Lord tell us he will provide a way to obey every commandment he gives us? If we are accountable to our actions in relation to government in both the making and administration of law, and we are commanded not to use compulsion amongst our fellow man, then that would apply is the administration of compulsion through our agent the government. The consequences are promised, and real. The Lord does provide a way, but His ways are not our ways. Kelton, though I understand the feeling, I think the premise of needing x amount of $ is false.

Did not the Lord tell us he will provide a way to obey every commandment he gives us?

If we are accountable to our actions in relation to government in both the making and administration of law, and we are commanded not to use compulsion amongst our fellow man, then that would apply is the administration of compulsion through our agent the government.

The consequences are promised, and real. The Lord does provide a way, but His ways are not our ways.

]]> By: Kelton Baker http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-29 Kelton Baker Mon, 03 May 2010 17:13:28 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-29 Another way to look at this situation is this: while the Saints are at liberty to shun coerced systems and embrace the social order of freedom, that is the path they must travel, but as the peaceful society and order of things gets replaced by coercive government, it becomes increasingly difficult to run from the order being forced upon us. For instance, I attempted getting a college degree without government grants or loans, lacking parental support to do so, and working two jobs while attending school full-time, which nearly killed me, school which was overly expensive thanks to government meddling; then I began raising a family and paid dearly for private insurance so we would not use the government to pay for our babies though our poverty easily qualified us to use Medicaid, medicine which was too expensive thanks to government tweaking; I could go on and on, but eventually, we realized that the only path to any measure of living a bountiful life was to quit trying to be heroic in order to maintain poverty. After years of denying ourselves the EIC benefit on our income taxes, we finally took it and are finally making goals to get out of our extreme poverty. There really is a trap associated with poverty, if you are not selling your soul to the welfare office, you are doing so with the pawn broker to pay for unexpected expenses, and living on less than your potential because of the urgency of living: just paying rent each month is a valiant experience. And while I have lowered my standards in order to raise my standard of living, I wish that conservatives who see the evil in socialism would have a little more heart towards those that accept those needed services. The real evil is in voting for and upholding leaders who enact such things, less so in partaking of the spoils. You simply can't fault the Children of Israel for not having a year's food storage while living in Egypt, neither can you fault Latter-Day Saints for not all making the six-figure, single-earner incomes that a large, ideal LDS family now requires today in this modern world. And while we talk of socialism, how about the socialism in giving free military defense to socialist nations so that they can spend their money on their own social services rather than in national defense, at the cost of U.S. taxpayers? Such is the case for Japan, Saudi Arabia, and much of Europe. We've pledged to defend them at little of their own expense so that they can have free health care and education and then snub their noses at hapless Americans who never question their nation's military exploits in over 135 countries around the world. Another way to look at this situation is this: while the Saints are at liberty to shun coerced systems and embrace the social order of freedom, that is the path they must travel, but as the peaceful society and order of things gets replaced by coercive government, it becomes increasingly difficult to run from the order being forced upon us.
For instance, I attempted getting a college degree without government grants or loans, lacking parental support to do so, and working two jobs while attending school full-time, which nearly killed me, school which was overly expensive thanks to government meddling; then I began raising a family and paid dearly for private insurance so we would not use the government to pay for our babies though our poverty easily qualified us to use Medicaid, medicine which was too expensive thanks to government tweaking; I could go on and on, but eventually, we realized that the only path to any measure of living a bountiful life was to quit trying to be heroic in order to maintain poverty. After years of denying ourselves the EIC benefit on our income taxes, we finally took it and are finally making goals to get out of our extreme poverty.
There really is a trap associated with poverty, if you are not selling your soul to the welfare office, you are doing so with the pawn broker to pay for unexpected expenses, and living on less than your potential because of the urgency of living: just paying rent each month is a valiant experience. And while I have lowered my standards in order to raise my standard of living, I wish that conservatives who see the evil in socialism would have a little more heart towards those that accept those needed services. The real evil is in voting for and upholding leaders who enact such things, less so in partaking of the spoils.
You simply can’t fault the Children of Israel for not having a year’s food storage while living in Egypt, neither can you fault Latter-Day Saints for not all making the six-figure, single-earner incomes that a large, ideal LDS family now requires today in this modern world.
And while we talk of socialism, how about the socialism in giving free military defense to socialist nations so that they can spend their money on their own social services rather than in national defense, at the cost of U.S. taxpayers? Such is the case for Japan, Saudi Arabia, and much of Europe. We’ve pledged to defend them at little of their own expense so that they can have free health care and education and then snub their noses at hapless Americans who never question their nation’s military exploits in over 135 countries around the world.

]]> By: Rob http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-28 Rob Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:50:26 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-28 I have seen this exact thing in my ward. I have had debates with other elder's in my quorum regarding the socilaization of our country, and people's increased reliance on government handouts, and how it decreases personal liberty, and that we have been counceled against it, and even quoted Ezra Taft Benson... and been met with shrugs. "Well, that was 25 years ago... if it was important and true, Pres. Monson would be talking about it." I don't even know what to say to that. Perhaps he was trying to mentally justify his vote for Obama, but... Incidentally, I just found this site today, and I LOVE it. There are WAY too few opportunities I get to hang out with other freedom loving, realizing-what-is-going-on LDS brothers/sisters. Everyone is asleep as we teeter over the abyss. Everyone seems perfectly aware of all the MORAL dangers around us, but Satan doesn't confine himself to just that particular battlefield. I have seen this exact thing in my ward. I have had debates with other elder’s in my quorum regarding the socilaization of our country, and people’s increased reliance on government handouts, and how it decreases personal liberty, and that we have been counceled against it, and even quoted Ezra Taft Benson… and been met with shrugs. “Well, that was 25 years ago… if it was important and true, Pres. Monson would be talking about it.” I don’t even know what to say to that. Perhaps he was trying to mentally justify his vote for Obama, but…

Incidentally, I just found this site today, and I LOVE it. There are WAY too few opportunities I get to hang out with other freedom loving, realizing-what-is-going-on LDS brothers/sisters. Everyone is asleep as we teeter over the abyss. Everyone seems perfectly aware of all the MORAL dangers around us, but Satan doesn’t confine himself to just that particular battlefield.

]]> By: Jeff http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-27 Jeff Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:24:27 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-27 I share the author's concerns and have a few thoughts of my own to add to this discussion. First I was disappointed some months ago when I overheard a pair of conversations at work where one coworker was was recommending to another that the second should get on WIC as the first had done. Then a few days/weeks later the second thanked the first for the recommendation indicating his family was now using the program and thought it was great. These are both Melchizedek priesthood holders with families comparable in composition to mine and the three of us all make the same money. I thought to my self these guys don't realize it but in a way they are taking that food off of MY table. Then a summer or 2 back some of the LDS families in the neighborhood (including a counselor in the bishopric who has since been called as Bishop) were sending their kids to a local school for free lunches (I guess they just feed anybody of school age who shows up) and our kids had been invited to go along. my wife and I discussed it and decided that we didn't want our kids going based on our feelings about the appropriateness of such a program even existing in the first place. (Full disclosure: my kids are home schooled). Now at the same time when on occasions my tax refund has exceeded the amount that was withheld from my wages I have had no trouble cashing the check. Also I was able to buy a "modest home" (as the brethren suggest) several years earlier than my projections due to the $8000 first time home buyer tax credit. Now with that said how many of us here would feel it appropriate or beneficial to the missions of the church if the brethren intimated that using government assistance could affect a persons membership in the church? Or their worthiness to attend the temple? This is a touchy subject, and I don't have answers. To end I would like to point out the words of the Lord in D&C 58:26-29 ( which i summarize in my own words as "on some days 'follow the prophet' just isn't good enough.") 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. 27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; 28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. 29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned. I think being active in support of the constitution easily falls into this category. Liberating mankind from political tyranny is not one of the missions of the church (remember the Jews were looking for a political savior as they rejected Christ)... but maintaining liberty is certainly worthwhile and those who pursue it will in no wise lose their reward. sorry if my ending seems OT... But I'd hate for any one to confuse "being anxiously engaged in a good cause" with "looking beyond the mark". I share the author’s concerns and have a few thoughts of my own to add to this discussion.

First I was disappointed some months ago when I overheard a pair of conversations at work where one coworker was was recommending to another that the second should get on WIC as the first had done. Then a few days/weeks later the second thanked the first for the recommendation indicating his family was now using the program and thought it was great.

These are both Melchizedek priesthood holders with families comparable in composition to mine and the three of us all make the same money. I thought to my self these guys don’t realize it but in a way they are taking that food off of MY table.

Then a summer or 2 back some of the LDS families in the neighborhood (including a counselor in the bishopric who has since been called as Bishop) were sending their kids to a local school for free lunches (I guess they just feed anybody of school age who shows up) and our kids had been invited to go along. my wife and I discussed it and decided that we didn’t want our kids going based on our feelings about the appropriateness of such a program even existing in the first place. (Full disclosure: my kids are home schooled).

Now at the same time when on occasions my tax refund has exceeded the amount that was withheld from my wages I have had no trouble cashing the check. Also I was able to buy a “modest home” (as the brethren suggest) several years earlier than my projections due to the $8000 first time home buyer tax credit.

Now with that said how many of us here would feel it appropriate or beneficial to the missions of the church if the brethren intimated that using government assistance could affect a persons membership in the church? Or their worthiness to attend the temple?

This is a touchy subject, and I don’t have answers.

To end I would like to point out the words of the Lord in D&C 58:26–29 ( which i summarize in my own words as “on some days ‘follow the prophet’ just isn’t good enough.”)

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.

I think being active in support of the constitution easily falls into this category. Liberating mankind from political tyranny is not one of the missions of the church (remember the Jews were looking for a political savior as they rejected Christ)… but maintaining liberty is certainly worthwhile and those who pursue it will in no wise lose their reward.

sorry if my ending seems OT… But I’d hate for any one to confuse “being anxiously engaged in a good cause” with “looking beyond the mark”.

]]> By: Bryan http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-26 Bryan Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:32 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-26 Good point James It was an insert not on the online version. Here is the pdf of the insert https://www.ldsjobs.org/Static%20Files/ERS/Surviving_Unempl_PD50017002_000_-LTR.pdf Also, Keith, President Benson said not to justify receiving govt gratuities by saying you are a contributing tax payer. http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162&x=43&y=2 Good point James It was an insert not on the online version. Here is the pdf of the insert
https://www.ldsjobs.org/Static%20Files/ERS/Surviving_Unempl_PD50017002_000_-LTR.pdf

Also, Keith, President Benson said not to justify receiving govt gratuities by saying you are a contributing tax payer. http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162&x=43&y=2

]]> By: James http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-25 James Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:33:10 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-25 Bryan, In your comment you stated the following. "In July of 2009, the Ensign had an insert which said one of the ways to be self reliant was to take government welfare. Not only is this irony in the extreme, but is yet another example of the point of this article." Could you please show me where in the July 2009 Ensign it said this. I found a section about the welfare training of the church, but nowhere did it mention that members should take government welfare to help them be self reliant. I went through the whole issue twice and that section three times and couldn't find it. It might be there, but before I trust what you said, please show me exactly where it said that. If you are going to make comments like this, please provide the exact reference. Too many rumors and false doctrine has been spread by people sharing things they thought they heard without giving direct sources. Bryan, In your comment you stated the following.
“In July of 2009, the Ensign had an insert which said one of the ways to be self reliant was to take government welfare. Not only is this irony in the extreme, but is yet another example of the point of this article.”

Could you please show me where in the July 2009 Ensign it said this. I found a section about the welfare training of the church, but nowhere did it mention that members should take government welfare to help them be self reliant. I went through the whole issue twice and that section three times and couldn’t find it. It might be there, but before I trust what you said, please show me exactly where it said that.

If you are going to make comments like this, please provide the exact reference. Too many rumors and false doctrine has been spread by people sharing things they thought they heard without giving direct sources.

]]> By: Keith Sorensen http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-24 Keith Sorensen Mon, 29 Mar 2010 02:07:39 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-24 Regarding: Social Security which was voted as a "Targeted Retirement" funded for and by those "Workers" who contributed to it... Medicare was added many years latter as part of the same... Over time it became just another General Tax to those who contributed to it... Obviously it is and has been abused... However, over the last 150 Quarters I have contributed about $2,000,000 in to-days $$$... .. If i received $40,000/year it would take 50 years to break even, (age 115)... The 16,00 I receive is not a dole.... It is grand theft by the Government... Regarding: Social Security which was voted as a “Targeted Retirement” funded for and by those “Workers” who contributed to it… Medicare was added many years latter as part of the same… Over time it became just another General Tax to those who contributed to it…

Obviously it is and has been abused…

However, over the last 150 Quarters I have contributed about $2,000,000 in to-days $$$… .. If i received $40,000/year it would take 50 years to break even, (age 115)…
The 16,00 I receive is not a dole…. It is grand theft by the Government…

]]> By: Jake Johnson http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-23 Jake Johnson Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:56:33 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-23 OH what a horrible article! Argh! If this was true, then all those with food storage would be excommunicated for "looking beyond the mark" and doing more than everyone else in the church! There are so many things wrong with this, I can't even begin! Also, if this logic is correct, then obviously, when Christ died, and the church became hellenized, the apostles were OBVIOUSLY the ones who apostatized because they did not follow the MAINSTREAM of the church! The quote is "follow the prophet and THE MAJORITY OF THE BRETHREN"! Not the mainstream of the church! Jake OH what a horrible article! Argh! If this was true, then all those with food storage would be excommunicated for “looking beyond the mark” and doing more than everyone else in the church! There are so many things wrong with this, I can’t even begin! Also, if this logic is correct, then obviously, when Christ died, and the church became hellenized, the apostles were OBVIOUSLY the ones who apostatized because they did not follow the MAINSTREAM of the church!

The quote is “follow the prophet and THE MAJORITY OF THE BRETHREN”! Not the mainstream of the church!

Jake

]]> By: Bryan http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-22 Bryan Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:26:50 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-22 Check out the podcast on this topic http://ldsliberty.org/?p=261 Check out the podcast on this topic http://ldsliberty.org/?p=261

]]> By: Ralph Hughes http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-21 Ralph Hughes Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:55:43 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-21 Yes, Bill it would be wonderful if Church leaders, including Stake Presidents and Bishops, challenged their members to get and read the founding documents or our Country, along with other key documents like the writings of Washington, Jefferson, and Payne…and then re-read Mosiah and Alma. It would be lovely if there were a Stake specialist called to help find and publish a non-partisan local guide to “getting involved in your local community decision making and leadership selections” My efforts to promote such in our ward have fallen flat. When I suggested such to our bishop, who, BTW, well understands the dangers to our remaining freedoms (his father is JBS) he told me there are much bigger problems to deal with. I believe our stake presidency and most if not all of the high council would consider attention given to constitutional principles and freedom to be an undesirable distraction from the current goals of increasing temple readiness, temple attendance, home/visiting teaching, family solidarity, etc. Yes, Bill it would be wonderful if Church leaders, including Stake Presidents and Bishops, challenged their members to get and read the founding documents or our Country, along with other key documents like the writings of Washington, Jefferson, and Payne…and then re-read Mosiah and Alma. It would be lovely if there were a Stake specialist called to help find and publish a non-partisan local guide to “getting involved in your local community decision making and leadership selections” My efforts to promote such in our ward have fallen flat. When I suggested such to our bishop, who, BTW, well understands the dangers to our remaining freedoms (his father is JBS) he told me there are much bigger problems to deal with. I believe our stake presidency and most if not all of the high council would consider attention given to constitutional principles and freedom to be an undesirable distraction from the current goals of increasing temple readiness, temple attendance, home/visiting teaching, family solidarity, etc.

]]> By: CharityAngel http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-20 CharityAngel Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:39:52 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-20 Bishop Burton mentions twice in his comments here about the Evils of the dole and the belief of entitlement. He says that the bishops are to help people not rely on the dole. While using local community programs may be needed, he does not say that the dole is a way to live, but that it is evil. Just thought I would point it out. http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8885-1-4981-1,00.html Bishop Burton mentions twice in his comments here about the Evils of the dole and the belief of entitlement.

He says that the bishops are to help people not rely on the dole. While using local community programs may be needed, he does not say that the dole is a way to live, but that it is evil. Just thought I would point it out.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8885-1-4981-1,00.html

]]> By: David Hatton http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-19 David Hatton Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:21:39 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-19 President Thomas Monson in his first talk to the priesthood as Prophet told us that "The stability of the nations is being ruined by political machinations. Tyrants and despots are everywhere leaving the people downtrodden, oppressed, without opportunity and with a feeling of failure." (Paraphrase) He then told the priesthood it was their responsibility to fix it. (April 2008) His next talk given to the priesthood he quoted Ezekiel saying; "I will give you a new spirit and a new heart and this new spirit and new heart will cause you to live the statutes and judgments." He continued; How do we receive this great blessing, how do we receive this great promise, is there a procedure to follow? This applies to the deacon as well as the high priest, Learn what you must learn, do what you must do, and be what you must be." (paraphrase) What must we learn? The statues and judgments of course. What are the statues and judgments? The Statues and judgments of the Law of Moses, the foundation of the U.S. Constitution. What must we do? Step forward and save the constitution. What must we be? The kind of people that can live the statutes and judgments I.E. Constitutional law. (Oct 2008) President Thomas Monson in his first talk to the priesthood as Prophet told us that “The stability of the nations is being ruined by political machinations. Tyrants and despots are everywhere leaving the people downtrodden, oppressed, without opportunity and with a feeling of failure.” (Paraphrase) He then told the priesthood it was their responsibility to fix it. (April 2008)
His next talk given to the priesthood he quoted Ezekiel saying; “I will give you a new spirit and a new heart and this new spirit and new heart will cause you to live the statutes and judgments.”
He continued; How do we receive this great blessing, how do we receive this great promise, is there a procedure to follow? This applies to the deacon as well as the high priest, Learn what you must learn, do what you must do, and be what you must be.” (paraphrase)
What must we learn? The statues and judgments of course. What are the statues and judgments? The Statues and judgments of the Law of Moses, the foundation of the U.S. Constitution. What must we do? Step forward and save the constitution. What must we be? The kind of people that can live the statutes and judgments I.E. Constitutional law. (Oct 2008)

]]> By: Greg West http://ldsliberty.org/the-coming-apostasy-of-latter-day-conservatives/#comment-18 Greg West Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:08:40 +0000 http://ldsliberty.org/?p=139#comment-18 It is possible for a latter-day saint to responsibly use the government safety net, but the obligation to become self-reliant is just as applicable as those whose circumstances force them to use the Church's welfare system. Those who are in that position must not succumb to remain dependent on either system. There is another apostasy that may take place, however. It is related to the conditions of which the author speaks here. 2 Nephi 30:10 speaks of a "great division" that will take place. The wicked will be destroyed by it and the Lord will spare his people. My own opinion is that the split will occur over tithe-paying, personal debt, and having a supply of food, etc. Those are the minimum qualifications, so to speak, to get on the "ark" in the last days. Lorenzo Snow taught that the United Order is that ark for us. The foolish "virgins" who don't prepare, who don't pay tithing, who have tons of debt from an extravagant lifestyle, and who don't have any food, won't be able to enter the ark when the time comes. This will result in a split in the Church. There will be LDS folks who believe, but didn't obey and there will be those who believed and did obey. The ones who didn't obey won't be able to practice consecration, because you can't consecrate what you don't have or what you don't own outright. I anticipate these things will occur when the US and the world economy collapses in the future. Those who can't enter into a united order will have to rely on the state, which will take over every aspect of their lives. It is possible for a latter-day saint to responsibly use the government safety net, but the obligation to become self-reliant is just as applicable as those whose circumstances force them to use the Church’s welfare system. Those who are in that position must not succumb to remain dependent on either system.

There is another apostasy that may take place, however. It is related to the conditions of which the author speaks here. 2 Nephi 30:10 speaks of a “great division” that will take place. The wicked will be destroyed by it and the Lord will spare his people. My own opinion is that the split will occur over tithe-paying, personal debt, and having a supply of food, etc. Those are the minimum qualifications, so to speak, to get on the “ark” in the last days. Lorenzo Snow taught that the United Order is that ark for us.

The foolish “virgins” who don’t prepare, who don’t pay tithing, who have tons of debt from an extravagant lifestyle, and who don’t have any food, won’t be able to enter the ark when the time comes. This will result in a split in the Church. There will be LDS folks who believe, but didn’t obey and there will be those who believed and did obey. The ones who didn’t obey won’t be able to practice consecration, because you can’t consecrate what you don’t have or what you don’t own outright.

I anticipate these things will occur when the US and the world economy collapses in the future. Those who can’t enter into a united order will have to rely on the state, which will take over every aspect of their lives.

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