Do you really want to be a Mormon?

Do you really want to be a MORMON?

Don’t worry. You aren’t reading anti-Mormon literature. What you will read is so deeply pro-Mormon, that you will come closer to understanding the full implications of being named after the prophet Mormon. At the end of this I’ll ask you the same question: “Do you really want to be a Mormon?”

Did you know that there was a time in history in which all of us came within a hair’s breadth of losing out on the treasure that is the Book of Mormon? It’s true.

Mormon, was not only the prophet who abridged most of the book that covered much of Nephite history and the teachings of Christ, but he was the chief captain of the armies of the Nephites. That’s a dangerous calling. Have you ever wondered what would have happened if Mormon hadn’t survived to finish his record?

There is a time in Mormon’s life that he should have been killed in cold blood with every other soul in the Nephite nation with the exception of 23 other souls and the few who dissented or escaped.

This is what happened: In 384 AD, Mormon stood at the head of hundreds of thousands of Nephites armed with weapons of war in a vain attempt at national preservation. Mormon didn’t even try to number the attacking Lamanites because there were so many of them. It’s very telling that what happens next is reminiscent of using a sharp blade to fell a tree:

Mormon 6:10

“And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.”

This is when Mormon should have been killed. Everyone else was being felled like timber and somehow an aging man at the head of his soldiers wasn’t? Why is this so? I can offer a theory. Whether it’s true or not, one still has to admit that Mormon was a correct and Christ-like man of perfect understanding who should be emulated on every point.

You may recall that there was a time in which Mormon was not leading Nephite armies. More than 20 years previous to this fateful day in the land of Cumorah, Mormon made a decision that only peaceful followers of Christ would understand. Apparently, nobody else at that time understood him.

Mormon 3:10–11

“And they did swear by the heavens, and also by the throne of God, that they would go up to battle against their enemies, and would cut them off from the face of the land.

And it came to pass that I, Mormon, did utterly refuse from this time forth to be a commander and a leader of this people, because of their wickedness and abomination.”

Mormon resigned from his post of General to be a witness to the destruction of his people because they broke the Lord’s law of war.  Can you imagine the shock of the whole nation upon hearing the news that their general had stepped down? The public pressure for him to recant his words must have been quite intense. The Nephites, however, ignored his words and example and undertook to give the first offense in a new series of wars. This new round of violence proved to turn the tide from their favor and toward their eventual destruction. To re-iterate how this new Nephite policy was against the time-honored tradition of righteous Nephites, let’s look at the words of Mormon in the book of Alma:

Alma 48:14–16

“Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives. And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger; And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them (…).”

A careful and honest reading of the above passage should show to the truth-seeking Latter-day Saint that a hallmark of the Lord’s people is to translate the personal emulation of Christ into foreign policy by never giving an offense and only using military force to defend. This policy is an outgrowth of faith that when one obeys commandments, that the Lord himself, through miraculous means, if necessary will preserve his people. Where is this faith to be found in our nations of today?

Let’s now return to the destruction of the Nephite nation. Mormon is again at the head of his people fighting a defensive war and he is spared while those under his command are not. Why is this? We could say that the spirit of the Lord softened the hearts of the Lamanites that they didn’t slay him. He obviously had more to write in the record which we now know as the Book of Mormon.

What thoughts could have entered their minds that stayed their hands from ending his life? I speculate that mercy was shown to him because he did what he could to attempt to persuade the Nephites not to go to an unprovoked battle against the Lamanites.  He only took up the sword again when they were on the defensive.

Surely, the countless throngs of Lamanites must have seen him. Mormon didn’t say he made any attempt to hide at that time. Surely, everyone knew who he was because the King of the Lamanites wrote an epistle to Mormon himself. No doubt he wore the colors or insignia indicating that he was the chief captain of the Nephite armies. Even if they thought he was dead, wouldn’t it have been a mark of honor for some junior Lamanite warrior to scalp the great leader Mormon and at least claim to have killed him? Still he survived, at least that particular day. Why is that?

It is my opinion that all people amongst the Nephites and Lamanites revered or at least respected this great man who not only lived the teachings of Christ in his personal life, but also translated his convictions into public speech and action. The news that he had stepped down from his command must have been big news everywhere amongst both nations. Mormon, the man who refused to raise his sword to lead people in unrighteous warfare, was spared by every single one of the thousands of Lamanites who marched passed him to destroy the people he was leading against them. Their lust for blood that proved fatal to everyone else that day was not directed at Mormon. This survivor is the man who lived long enough to finish the record written on plates of gold.

Do we appreciate the pains and miracles that brought this record to light in these days? Do we appreciate the life and morals of the man who labored to compile it for us? Knowing that the Book of Mormon was written for OUR day, should we not take to heart the messages within it and liken this book of scripture unto ourselves personally and collectively?

I invite all those who have taken upon themselves the name of Christ, to also emulate the man who gave his name to the most correct book ever written. Among other things we must NEVER support unrighteous dominion and thus we CANNOT support aggressive warfare. Because of Mormon’s example, I gladly identify myself with this loving prophet of God, and warrior of perfect understanding. I am glad to say that my name is JC and I’m a Mormon. Knowing these things, do you still really want to be a Mormon too? I hope that you do.

Image: LDS Media Library

30 comments

  1. Why has our Church abandoned this position? Why are we now a bunch of war mongers? Why do so many of us support the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the Middle East by our military? Why do I get criticized, persecuted, and cursed out by fellow LDS for teaching what Mormon, Moroni, and our Savior taught about warfare? How are we any longer a “peculiar people”?

    1. Please do not confuse the position of the church with the opinions of its members. As the (tongue-in-cheek) saying goes, “The Church was perfect until God let all of us in!”

    2. because there is apostasy in the latter-day church–

      IMO that doesn’t mean that the keys are not still in the church (I believe that and can honestly answer the recommend questions and get a recommend)–

      but the pure teachings have been subverted within the culture on all levels–

      I like what another Mormon blogger said about how the ‘church’ was in apostasy during the time of Zachariah the father of John the Baptist, and yet that righteous man saw angels and fulfilled his temple “assignment”–
      There were many righteous people in the ‘church’ during that time, and the conditions that were required for Jesus to be born and to minister were there–
      that is an eye-opening thought–

    3. I see the apostate members…the “pollutions”… supporting these wars and support Fascist Republicans and Marxist Democrats and undeclared foreign wars. I do not see the Church supporting them if the Church is the leadership. If the Church is the membership then the Church is supporting evil. But that is just the fruit from a corrupt tree. So of course that would happen.

      The members were told in the 30s to stop being Socialists and Communists and to uphold the Constitution. They did not listen.

      Message from the First Presidency, Improvement Era, August 1936, p. 488.
      “Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to false ideologies such as socialism and communism. The official Church position on communism remains unchanged since it was first promulgated in 1936: ‘We call upon all Church members completely to eschew Communism. The safety of our divinely inspired Constitutional government and the welfare of our Church imperatively demand that Communism shall have no place in America.'”

      Every member that has a Social Security Number and pays the voluntary 1040 Income Tax and does not even know what a dollar is when signing the 1040 under penalties of perjury is a practicing Socialist.

      “Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world in which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the Unite States. If members of the Melchizedek Priesthood allow the U.S. Constitution to be destroyed, they not only forfeit their rights to the Priesthood, but to a place in this highest degree of glory as well.”
      (David O. McKay, The Instructor, Feb. 1956, p.34)

    4. The church has never abandoned this position. And the policy has never been one of straight peace at all costs. There is a time to fight. I think that people in the church have gotten away from understanding these concepts and have been influenced by the world. Two parts that stuck out to me were, first, the absolute need to avoid unrighteous dominion. It is my experience that, though all should understand what this means, many do not and many in the church do exercise unrighteous dominion to varying extents, both men and women. The other point was Alma 48: 14–16. The Lord will tell us if we need to flee, or if we need to fight, what to fight and when to do it.

  2. The Church body will do what it will do, but as for the leadership of the Church I do not hesitate to declare that their position has not changed — ours is a gospel of peace. While the members may incorrectly promote positions and interpret Church leaders as aligned with hawkish foreign policies, the sweet peace of the gospel of Jesus Christ offers calm amid persecution. If we are standing in anguish at persecution, our own faith is not yet perfected; if we fear, our own love is not yet perfected.

    While I fail to live up to this, I am becoming increasingly tired of exposing the wickedness of society — as I continually fail to live up to the principles that the Spirit has taught me. If I anguish, which I do, then I must fix my own faith before fixing another’s. I cannot raise another unless I am on higher ground, and I cannot light another soul with the Spirit of Christ when I am not in possession of it.

    It is my experience that in those moments when I apply Christlike love, I cannot be persecuted — for anything I would have perceived as persecution before in my fear is immediately swallowed up in the joy of my Savior. When warmongering exists in the hearts of our fellow man, we mourn for them — for they do not know peace, nor are their hearts prepared for greater things. But let us prepare our own selves first, that when persecutions increase — we too will continue to know the sweet peace, solace, and joy that comes from our Savior.

  3. JC – you speculate as to why he survived – why he lived? Good grief – have you seen the arms on that guy?!!! He was a monster!! Seriously, though, it continues to be amazing to me how may Latter Day Saints ignore the multiple warnings in the Book of Mormon and D&C. I agree with Shiloh – that the Church hasn’t changed – but the people have become blinded and succumbed to the lure of security at the price of liberty, war in the name of pride but at the price of peace, trust in the arm of flesh at the price faith and sanctification. I especially love your last paragraph. Perhaps our voices together will make a difference.

  4. I agree that the church isn’t to blame. The people have changed. THis article was written to the people.

  5. I believe that most LDS people could be classified as “war mongers” by default… meaning they hear the stories of wartime, and they hear that America is the promised land, and therefore because they are not used to thinking for themselves (just parroting what they hear others say… assuming that someone else has done the work of thinking), they just open their mouth and let any thoughtless phrase come out as if they had actually done the thinking for themselves on the subject.

    Spend five minutes in conversation with most of them and you will get to the end of that conversation, with less intelligence than you had to begin with… from the circular reasoning to the contorted looks on their faces that cry out, “why would you questions something that seems so obvious?” Well after only a few dozen of these conversation, I have come to realize that most people do not want to be accountable for their own thoughts, so they keep parroting the party line… only to cry all the louder when you (who has done the thinking for yourself) disagree with them on principle.

    How do you have a real conversation with someone like this? You can’t because they are too concerned with looking smart and being accepted than they are with discovering and living truth.

  6. We the memberships of the church are a warlike people. The prophets are not.

    1. I agree. I am not an American but I have lived among them for 45 years. They were not always to blind, many were apposed to the Viet Nam conflict.

  7. In the temple I am nudged to think how solemn and peaceful my life can be following the loving acts of the Savior.

  8. Thank you for your article. I have an increased admiration of Mormon, the man, because of your great insights. As a current active duty military member (no, please don’t thank me for my ‘service’!) and member of the Church, I recognize that many of our people have become blinded by fiat patriotism that is incompatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our current leaders preach and pray for peace. I am looking for a modern day Mormon to follow as my commander. When I joined the military, I did not sign up for what we’re doing now…but perhaps more accurately, I just couldn’t see then what I can see now. I am for peace, as I believe every military member should be regardless of religious beliefs! In sacrament meeting a few weeks ago, I gave a talk on greed, and specifically about how 99% of all conflicts and wars throughout history are because of greed and wickedness, and asked everybody to reconsider their views on war and to pray for peace…especially if the result is I lose my job and career! Wouldn’t that be great!. I hope it did some good. Many people responded positively saying that they agreed with me (which means they agree with the Lord…because I tried to convey His words through scriptures and through the words of modern prophets) and appreciated my thoughts…which gave me hope that there are actually quite a few LDS folks who are for peace than we know. Thanks again…

    1. May I add that confusing state sanctioned war as God sanctioned is not only a problem among Latter-day Saints but Christians in general…but that is obvious. We Mormons should not do what would be the equivalent of an upstanding Nephite or Lamanite slapping a “Proud to be a Gadianton Robber” bumper sticker on the back of his ox cart. http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/112159.html

  9. The saints prefer the lies and sophistry of politicians over the enduring truths of the BOM. Makes me sad.

    1. Easier said than done:
      DC 123:17 Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed.

  10. The Apostasy started back in the 30s when Mormons FLOCKED to get Social Security Numbers and embraced Socialism and Marxism. The Ward Houses are now filed with Mormon Gadiantons and Romney supporters but I repeat myself.

    If you are filing a 1040 you are a part of the problem and a practicing Marxist. Stop paying voluntary taxes. Send back the Socialist Security number the Mark you with that ties you to 666 (42 USC sec 666(a)(13)(A).

    Israelites demanded a king and they got one.

    Mormons demanded Socialism and God gave it to them.

    The ward houses are filled to overflowing with pollutions and hypocrites and teachers who sell themselves for that which will canker and have polluted the holy church of God. The prophesied apostasy is in full swing:

    Mormon 8:31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

    Mormon 8:38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

  11. I think that we LDSs are too eager to give our church leaders “a pass,” and believe that they fully understand the war doctrine of Mormon as JC here described it so well and believe that it is only the membership that just can’t seem to get it. I believe the truth is much scarier than that. I think the leadership often doesn’t “get it” either.

    Back when the war with Iraq was first starting, I would argue with other church members that the war was wrong and we shouldn’t be there and what do you think they would throw back at me? The words of President Hinckley. I have been through all of his talks on the subject many times and it is my sincere belief that for the first several years of the war he was in favor of the war and that by about 4 years into the war he had “seen the light,” and come to believe that the American people, including himself, had been deceived. Below is my defense of that position.

    I start with His first post-war talk given Oct 2001 called The Times in Which We Live. “Recently, in company with a few national religious leaders, I was invited to the White House to meet with the president. In talking to us he was frank and straightforward. (I think this is where he got tricked by the sophistries of men.)

    “That same evening he spoke to the Congress and the nation in unmistakable language concerning the resolve of America and its friends to hunt down the terrorists who were responsible for the planning of this terrible thing and any who harbored such….

    “Those of us who are American citizens stand solidly with the president of our nation. The terrible forces of evil must be confronted and held accountable for their actions. This is not a matter of Christian against Muslim…. It is the terrorist organizations that must be ferreted out and brought down.”

    I go now to his next talk on the subject from the April 2003 conference titled War and Peace.

    “As I discuss the matter, I seek the direction of the Holy Spirit. I have prayed and pondered much concerning this.”

    Pres Hinckley acknowledges the tense feelings on all sides.

    “The nations of the earth have been divided over the present situation. Feelings have run strong. There have been demonstrations for and against. We are now a world Church with members in most of the nations which have argued this matter. Our people have had feelings. They have had concerns…”

    He then starts defending the US occupation.

    “In the course of history tyrants have arisen from time to time who have oppressed their own people and threatened the world. Such is adjudged (this is not a definitive, I have received revelation word, but rather a conjectural word) to be the case presently, and consequently great and terrifying forces with sophisticated and fearsome armaments have been engaged in battle.”

    He relates a personal story of one believes that the US is doing good in Iraq.

    “In a touching letter I received just this week, a mother wrote of her Marine son who is serving for the second time in a Middle Eastern war. She says that at the time of his first deployment, “he came home on leave and asked me to go for a walk. … He had his arm around me and he told me about going to war. He … said, ‘Mom, I have to go so you and the family can be free, free to worship as you please. … And if it costs me my life … then giving my life is worth it.’”He is now there again and has written to his family recently, saying, “I am proud to be here serving my nation and our way of life. … I feel a lot safer knowing our Heavenly Father is with me.”

    He gets around to speaking as the President of the Church and focuses on the question we all want an answer for.

    “The question arises, “Where does the Church stand in all of this?”

    He takes a sidestep to reassure the Muslim people we bear them no ill will.

    “First, let it be understood that we have no quarrel with the Muslim people or with those of any other faith. We recognize and teach that all the people of the earth are of the family of God. And as He is our Father, so are we brothers and sisters with family obligations one to another.”

    He now gets back to the question but rather than speak as a prophet, he plays the good citizen card. He begs off with the excuse that military leaders have more information than he does. I do not find that at all reassuring from a prophet. Definitely nothing to assure me that the criteria for righteous war has been met as outlined in D&C 98.

    “But as citizens we are all under the direction of our respective national leaders. They have access to greater political and military intelligence than do the people generally. ”

    He continues to dance around the pros and cons of the war a bit and then gets to his personal feelings.

    “In a democracy we can renounce war and proclaim peace. There is opportunity for dissent. Many have been speaking out and doing so emphatically. That is their privilege. That is their right, so long as they do so legally. However, we all must also be mindful of another overriding responsibility, which I may add, governs my personal feelings and dictates my personal loyalties in the present situation.”

    He now uses the BOM to promote the idea that the wars in the Middle East are somehow defensive wars and somehow comparable to the Nephite wars of defense against the aggressive Lamanites. This I find totally unrealistic and a complete apples and oranges comparison.

    When war raged between the Nephites and the Lamanites, the record states that “the Nephites were inspired by a better cause, for they were not fighting for … power but they were fighting for their homes and their liberties, their wives and their children, and their all, yea, for their rites of worship and their church.

    “And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed to their God” (Alma 43:45–46)….”

    I skip forward to President Hinckley’s conclusion from these BOM references.

    “It is clear from these and other writings that there are times and circumstances when nations are justified, in fact have an obligation, to fight for family, for liberty, and against tyranny, threat, and oppression.”

    He then uses the words of the Savior to defend the US aggressor role in Iraq.

    “When all is said and done, we of this Church are people of peace. We are followers of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the Prince of Peace. But even He said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matt. 10:34).

    He then promotes the popular but false (IMO) precept that Americans have a duty to fight for liberty not only in our own borders, but around the world.

    “Furthermore, we are a freedom-loving people, committed to the defense of liberty wherever it is in jeopardy.”

    He then goes so far as to suggest that those who are anti-war may actually be fighting against God and the righteous pro-freedom forces. And that is one of the things that was thrown in my face as I spoke out against the war.

    “It may even be that He will hold us responsible if we try to impede or hedge up the way of those who are involved in a contest with forces of evil and repression.”

    By 2005, I believe that President Hinckley was starting to realize that he had been hoodwinked and although he never came on the record to publicly state that he had been deceived, he did start to speak about the war differently. It was in his August 2005 first presidency message when the entire membership of the church was strongly urged to reread the BOM by the end of the year. In that message, President Hinckley said the following. The accents ** are mine.

    “The Book of Mormon narrative is a chronicle of nations long since gone. But in its descriptions of the problems of today’s society, it is as *current as the morning newspaper* and much more definitive, inspired, and inspiring concerning the solutions of those problems.

    “I know of no other writing which sets forth with such clarity the tragic consequences to societies that follow courses contrary to the commandments of God. Its pages trace the stories of two distinct civilizations that flourished on the Western Hemisphere. Each began as a small nation, its people walking in the fear of the Lord. But with prosperity came growing evils. The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and *scheming leaders* who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises, who countenanced and even encouraged loose and lascivious living. These *evil schemers led the people into terrible wars* that resulted in the death of millions and the final and total extinction of two great civilizations in two different eras.”

    I suspect it was a subject of some discussion among the brethren as it was only a couple of months later at the October conference 2005 where Elder Perry gave a talk in keeping with the theme of reading the BOM through by the end of the year. He asked,

    “Why is the reading of the Book of Mormon so important to us today? It is because the major writers of the Book of Mormon fully understood that their writings were primarily for the people of a future generation rather than for the people of their own generation. Moroni wrote to our generation, “I speak unto you as if ye were present” (Morm. 8:35)…

    Elder Perry encourages us to focus our thoughts in BOM study on several topics. I find it supportive of my beliefs that he not only lists war as the first topic in his list but that his second topic is secret combinations which I believe is highly relevant to any discussion of 9/11 and any discussion of our wars of aggression in the Middle East.

    “Each time we read the book we should probably ask ourselves: “Why did these writers choose these particular stories or events to include in the record? What value are they for us today?”

    “Among the lessons we learn from the Book of Mormon are the cause and effect of war and under what conditions it is justified. It tells of evils and dangers of secret combinations, which are built up to get power and gain over the people…”

    It is my belief that we are all accountable individually for our study and interpretation of the scriptures. I believe the statement attributed to Brigham Young which I must paraphrase that he worried that the Saints would put too much faith in their leaders and believe everything they said rather than taking the Spirit as their guide was a true warning and reflects the situation currently. Yes, we sustain the leaders of the church, but we must also compare what they say to the scriptures and to the Spirit of God. We cannot simply put our trust in men. That is a form of idolatry and is trusting in the arm of flesh.

    1. Amen Brother Baker! Amen!

      Here is a line that I see abused time and again concerning protests…”so long as they do so legally.” What does that mean? When President Taylor was on the run from Federal Marshals and hiding out in the St. George Temple because of a warrant for his arrest for being a polygamist was he doing it legally?

      When Joseph Smith was on the run from the State of Illinois because he knew they were going to murder him, was he doing so legally?

      When Brigham Young sent Porter Rockwell and others to burn millions of dollars worth of U.S. military supplies, was he doing it legally?

      When the United Colonies sent the Declaration of Taking Up Arms against England to the king, were they doing it legally? http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos/9.2/

      Was the American revolution legal?

      How about the Mexican Revolution, was that legal?

      Was polygamy legal?

      Was taking land from the Indians legal?

      How about creating the State of Deseret from Mexico territory…was that done legally?

      How about Rosa Parks? Was her refusal to sit in the back of the bus legal?

      How about my actions of not paying income taxes EVER in my life because I can find no law that requires it AND because it is nothing more than unconstitutional enforced tithing collection for the unconstitutionally U.S. established civic religion of Marxism as per the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto? AM I doing it legally? (I have never been indicted or even accused of a tax crime and I am well over 50.)

      How about when I drive without a driver’s license and beat every ticket I get (3 in the last 10 years) am I doing it legally since I am NEVER convicted?

      What is: DOING IT LEGALLY?

      And how about the way the Federal Reserve system was established? Was that legal? Was it Constitutional just because the Supreme Court said it is? Was polygamy unconstitutional just because the Supreme COurt said it was. Were Blacks property just because the Supreme Court said they were? Was ObamaCare a Tax just because the Supreme Court said it was even though the President said it was not and so did Congress?

      How about the way the 16th and 17th Amendment were ever properly ratified? (The correct answer is “NO!”)

      How about the undeclared wars of Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I and II, Afghanistan etc. Were they legal?

      How about the torture committed against and sanctioned by the War Criminal George W. Bush?

      How about the black ops that the CIA has done all over the world?

      How about the lies that President Bush told to get us to go to war with Iraq when the evidence PROVES that the President was intentionally lying to get us to follow him into an undeclared war?

      How about that FDR knew about the sneak attack on Pearl and LET IT HAPPEN?

      What about the 7 point plan FDR used to intentionally get Japan to attack us?

      How about the cover up of President Kennedy’s assassination with the Magic Bullet Theory?

      You, Brother Baker, brilliantly quoted President Hinckley saying: “The people succumbed to the wiles of ambitious and *scheming leaders* who oppressed them with burdensome taxes, who lulled them with hollow promises…”

      This is EXACTLY what has happened to the USA ever since the Marxist Abe Lincoln gave us unconstitutional paper credit money (5th plank of the Communist Manifesto) income tax (2nd plank) promoted a strong Federal Government and government schools (10th plank) (By their fruits ye shall know them?).

      There is no doubt in my mind that President Hinckley was indeed hoodwinked by *scheming leaders*. It is not the first time President Hinckley was hoodwinked. Hoffman with the faked documents that led to the murder of a LDS bishop was another obvious time. But the great prophet Joshua was hoodwinked too by the leaders of the very cities Joshua was commanded to destroy by the Lord. Prophets get hoodwinked. That is why we are not to follow blindly but to get our own revelations and be led by the Spirit and not by men that can be hoodwinked. The prophet is a guide and if you see the guide is going to go over a cliff it is our duty to sustain the prophet by saying ” Hey! Don’t go over the cliff.”

      We are commanded to eschew Socialism and other false political isms and if we don’t we are told we are not true to the faith.

      How many of our Church leaders actually follow this commandment? Were they hoodwinked too?

      Great comments Brother Baker. They lifted my spirit.

  12. I have in my possession a gospel principles book that was issued to the members of the active duty military in WWII, in the front is a note from the first presidency to the soldiers. among other things, it declares “We pray him to deal with each of you as in his judgment and wisdom and mercy shall seem best, to give to each of you the will and the power to live righteously for that is to live gloriously. we pray that he will give you courage and fortitude to do your duty fully and to acquit ourselves honorably wherever your lot is cast. we pray that he will keep you from sin that your souls may stand pure before him so that we you return home you will be able to take your places in the lives of your communities and in the service of your church. ” – consider how you would live righteously and still be in war, to fulfill your duty and keep your honor and righteousness.

    The church has never been anti war. specifically. it has always been and remains anti offensive warfare. those who believe that being in certain countries is wrong is welcome to their beliefs. other believe it is right. mostly those who think it is right do not think it is right we should wipe out X group of people, it is that we should fight the war on their lands instead of ours, because they already attacked us, and continue to do so. things are not so clear as they used to be. judge others with the same understanding you would hope to get. give them the benefit of the doubt. my brother went to iraq right after 9/11 and wrote home that he fully believed that he was fighting the war there,so it didn’t come here, and if they backed out of there, it would come here. there was no doubt in his mind he was defending our country. no attacking another country… most soldiers who fight in wars deeply regret taking the life of anyone including the one aiming a gun right back at them. there have been many a war where mormons fought on opposing sides of the lines fighting what they felt was right.

    even in the book of mormon the nephites corner the lamanites against a river and proclaim that they are in the wrong, then the leader of the lamanites proclaims the nephites to be wrong… everyone has their own reasons. and its not always greed, its not always blood lust. but when our families need protecting from an offensive attack it is RIGHT that we should defend it. and that does not make me a warmonger. I do not love war, i do not love the thought of war or conquest.

    1. Maryanne,

      Let me first respond by saying that I believe that there are many like your brother who served in Iraq and other wars who did so because they loved their country and were willing to die for her. My arguments against the wars are not against the individuals who are called upon to fight in them, many of whom have noble intentions, and, as God looks on the heart, I think that those who believed they were doing right will be judged accordingly.

      But, to get to the question of the wars themselves. As LDSs, if we actually believe in the scriptures that we say we do, they have to be more than something we talk about on Sunday. They have to be a pattern and a guide for our lives. The prophet Moroni said that, “I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” These prophets wrote to us to guide us.

      I love the story in 3 Ne 3-4 because it fits our current scenario with the war on terror to a “T.” The had this evil band out there called the Gadianton Robbers that had grown so powerful they thought they could conquer the Nephite Nation. To make themselves look even more ferocious, they had shaved their heads and died their garments in blood. There leader writes a letter to the leader of the Nephites and tells them they have this one chance to surrender or next month they will come down and wipe the Nephites out.

      Now, compare that situation to ours. The Nephites had a terrifying enemy threat and it wasn’t an “I wonder if they might attack us in a few years,” this was a signed threat of “we’re coming next month.” The leader of the Nephites reacted by preparing his people to defend themselves. When the preparations were completed, many of the Nephites said to their leader, “Pray unto the Lord and let us go up…that we may fall upon the robbers and destroy them in their own lands.” You see. This is exactly what we did as a nation. We had a threat and we responded by going up to destroy them in their own lands. But that is NOT what the Nephites did. Their leader was acknowledged by the people as a great prophet and he responded to the people, “The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands…we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands.”

      You see, here is a perfect example of the Lord’s will regarding war. When you go up and take the aggressive role, at best you are on your own, and depending on the circumstances, God may even intervene against you. But when you prepare to defend (and follow the other commands as well) and then do not fight until attacked, we can expect the Lord’s help and deliverance. You see, it is a matter of faith. Do we put faith in our great strength and military might (also known as trusting in the arm of flesh) or do we put our faith in the Lord and trust in His promises?

      If the “musty, old BOM” isn’t fresh enough for you, the Lord restated his will regarding war in section 98:23-48 and I encourage you to review the whole passage. I will just quote you 33-37. “This is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them.

      “And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of peace unto that people, nation or tongue.

      “And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should bring these testimonies before the Lord;

      “Then I, the Lord, would give unto them a commandment, and justify them in going to battle…and I, the Lord, would fight their battles…until they had avenged themselves on all their enemies…”

      You see, the burden of the people of the Lord is to sue for peace. Even if the first efforts to settle peacefully fail, they are to try again a second time. And even if the second efforts to settle peacefully fail, they are to try again a third time. Finally, after three failed efforts at diplomacy, they may ask the Lord and if the Lord agrees with them, He will command them to go to war and He will fight for them.

      Did any of that happen with Iraq? No, No, and No. They did not attack us. They had nothing to do with 9/11. Not only did we not make any effort to settle things diplomatically, but we turned down their efforts to settle things with us diplomatically. We have that story from a whistleblower who was a liaison between our embassy and theirs who tells the story that they were making all kinds of offers to try and stop us from attacking them. They were offering to sell us oil at lower prices, to buy american cars and hospital equipment, etc. The whistleblower, Susan Lindaur spent a year in prison and 5 years on probation with threat of immediately going back to prison if she spoke up for her efforts to tell the tragic story of the American govt’s deliberate provocation of the war with Iraq. You can read the story in her book, Extreme Prejudice.

      And finally, God didn’t give any command to go to war. I would think President Hinckley would have been the one to announce that revelation and as I reviewed his statements above, he said nothing ever definitive and prophetic on the subject but only spoke of his own feelings and used tentative conjectural words. If President Bush received any such revelation, he certainly didn’t tell any of us and I think that would have made a pretty interesting photo-op so I don’t think Bush got the word either.

  13. Dear Maryanne,

    You state: “The church has never been anti war. specifically.”

    I believe you may be in error.

    “‘Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . .’ (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands. It cannot regard war as a righteous means of settling international disputes; these should and could be settled—the nations agreeing—by peaceful negotiation and adjustment.”
    http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4889-1,00.html

    “The Church as a Church does not believe in war and yet since its organization whenever war has come we have done our part…. we do thoroughly believe in building up our home defenses to the maximum extent necessary, but we do not believe that aggression should be carried on in the name and under the false cloak of defense. We therefore look with sorrowing eyes at the present use to which a great part of the funds being raised by taxes and by borrowing is being put.…We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution, and would set up such a reign of terror as exists now in many parts of Europe. We confess to you that it has not been possible for us to unify our own people even upon the necessity of such a turning about, and therefore we cannot unfortunately, and we say it regretfully, make any practical suggestion to you as to how the nation can be turned about. Faithfully yours, /s/ Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay.” (First Presidency letter to U.S. Treasury, September 30, 1941 AD)

    And now a question: What evidence do you have that Iraq was in any way involved in 9/11?

    I know that I have never seen any such evidence. All of the evidence given by the Bush administration proved to be lies. There is a lot of evidence the the United States was directly involved in 9/11 as a “false flag operation.” If there was no evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11 then no matter what your brother thought the fact is that we attacked a country that had not attacked us. The Iraq war (not actually ever declared by Congress and therefore unconstitutional) was just another act by our government to get “millions of gullible youth, [to march] merrily to their doom, carrying banners on which are emblazoned such intriguing and misapplied labels as social justice, equality, reform, patriotism, social welfare.”

    David O. McKay, Selections from the Discourses of David O. McKay (Gospel Ideals, p. 273):
    “THE NEW BARBARISM. “During the first half of the twentieth century we have traveled far into the soul-destroying land of socialism and made strange alliances through which we have become involved in almost continuous hot and cold wars over the whole of the earth. In this retreat from freedom the voices of protesting citizens have been drowned by raucous shouts of intolerance and abuse from those who led the retreat and their millions of gullible youth, who are marching merrily to their doom, carrying banners on which are emblazoned such intriguing and misapplied labels as social justice, equality, reform, patriotism, social welfare.”

    You see the enemy, according to the prophets, is already here in the USA. As the First Presidency clearly stated: “the real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism.”

    Alma 60:23 … Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

    Attacking Iraq and killing thousands of women and children was not cleaning the inner vessel first. It was murder to get Americans to have an outward enemy instead of facing “the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism” that HAS set up a socialist Satanic form of government in the USA.

    Romney and Obama BOTH embrace this evil underlying spirit of “false political isms” http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4889-1,00.html

    They both beat the war drum. They both support Socialist/Fascist/Communist beliefs. They both lend aid, encouragement and sympathy to the false and Satanic civil religion of Socialism.
    http://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/10/a-new-civil-religion?lang=eng

    “Latter-day Saints can not be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies.” http://www.lds.org/pa/display/0,17884,4889-1,00.html

    Elder Bruce R. McConkie 1985, A NEW WITNESS FOR THE ARTICLES OF FAITH, p. 54
    “Sad as it may be, almost the entire history of mankind is an account of false worship, false gods, and all the ills that attend such a course. Communism is in reality a form of religion in which men deny the God of the Bible and worship the gods of compulsion and power and war.”

    And by the way…The Lamanites were wrong and so was the USA when we invaded Iraq without any real provocation. We killed women and children, thousands of them. When were those now murdered children a threat to the USA? There was more of a chance that you would be killed by your own police than by an Iraqi terrorist. Not a single Iraqi was believed to have been on any of those planes on 9/11. There is now much more of a chance that you will be killed by your own police than by a foreign terrorist. Why don’t we declare war on our own police? The reason why is because: “Therefore, renounce war and proclaim peace . . . (D&C 98:16) Thus the Church is and must be against war. The Church itself cannot wage war, unless and until the Lord shall issue new commands.”

    To date I have not yet seen where the Lord has commanded us to declare war on the police or Iraq or Japan or Germany or Vietnam or North Korea or Afghanistan etc. etc.

    Did you know that in order to join the U.S. military that you must have voluntarily obtained and/or kept a Social Security Number? Social Security (condemned by in General Conference in Oct., 1936: by President Heber J. Grant) is a large part of “the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism”.

    I don’t have a Social Security Number. Neither do my children.

    President Marion G. Romney SOCIALISM AND THE UNITED ORDER COMPARED: “Now, not forgetting our duty to eschew socialism and support the just and holy principles of the Constitution, as directed by the Lord, I shall conclude these remarks with a few comments concerning what we should do about the United Order.”

    Joining the all volunteer military is not a way to “renounce war and proclaim peace…” If it is please explain why.

    It is not a way to “eschew socialism.” It certainly is not a way to “support the just and holy principles of the Constitution as directed by the Lord.” So what is it?

  14. I have never until this day heard that I, as a member of the LDS church, should not have a social security number. I am a mother of three children. Apparently I am ignorant, but I don’t remember having an option NOT to give them social security numbers. Please explain to me how I am to lead any sort of a life in this country without a social security number. How do I get a job? How do I get a drivers license? And, I was not aware that not paying taxes is even legal. I have always been taught to obey the laws of the land! I have always thought that if I did not pay my taxes I would be being dishonest and would be prosecuted. Is there something I don’t know about here??

    Also, I would like to note that we don’t always get to choose what the leaders of our government will do. As I recall, George W. Bush made the call to go to war. Not me. And as far as I know, George W. Bush is NOT LDS and has never read the Book of Mormon. So why in the world would I expect him to make a war decision based upon the principles of the book?

    Now, I am not saying that I supported the war or not…I don’t think I have studied enough to know. Mormon was a prophet of God and ALSO a general. Now, that makes sense that the actual person in charge of deciding whether to go to war or not, being a prophet, would need to heed God’s word. Makes sense to me. But how can we expect the same from a national leader who is NOT a prophet of God?

    You people are definitely making me think. But these are some questions I have.

  15. Dear Catherine,

    Obtaining a Social Security Number is voluntary. Naturally when the Beast wants you to do something that is evil he will lie and deceive. In the Book of Mormon it says:

    Helaman 6:38 And it came to pass on the other hand, that the Nephites did build them up and support them, beginning at the more wicked part of them, until they had overspread all the land of the Nephites, and had seduced the more part of the righteous until they had come down to believe in their works and partake of their spoils, and to join with them in their secret murders and combinations.

    In Elder Benson’s talk, Not Commanded in All Things he states:
    Well, to begin with, the Lord will not protect us unless we do our part. This devilish tactic of persuading people not to get concerned because the Lord will protect them no matter what they do is exposed by the Book of Mormon. Referring to the devil, it says, “And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, and they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well – and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.” (2 Nephi 28:21) I like that word “carefully.” In other words, don’t shake them, you might awake them. But the Book of Mormon warns us that when we should see these murderous conspiracies in our midst that we should awake to our awful situation. Now why should we awake if the Lord is going to take care of us anyway? Now let us suppose that it is too late to save freedom. It is still accounted unto us for righteousness’ sake to stand up and fight.

    I have researched these issues for 34 years. I have not filed an Income tax Return in 34 years. I have been VERY vocal about these issues and run for Governor of Nevada and other offices as an Independent Americans to warn people about their awful situation.

    My wife, 5 months after we were married in the Temple told me that if I ever filed a tax return she would divorce me because the income tax is a Communist tax. She was right. It is the 2nd plank of the Communist Manifesto. We LDS are COMMANDED to eschew Communism.

    Message from the First Presidency, Improvement Era, August 1936, p. 488:
    “Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to false ideologies such as socialism and communism. The official Church position on communism remains unchanged since it was first promulgated in 1936: “We call upon all Church members completely to eschew Communism.”

    I wanted to be “true to my faith.”

    How can we COMPLETELY eschew Communism if we are practicing Communist principles and doctrine? How can we LDS eschew Socialism while practicing the socialism of Social Security?

    There is not enough room in this response to explain all of this complicated issue. But let me suggest that you begin by asking yourself if the First Presidency was giving you false instructions about the necessity of “eschewing communism” or if they (God) meant it?

    The most interesting issue to me is the question of what is a dollar. Joseph Smith said:

    “I consider that it is not only prudential, but absolutely necessary to protect the inhabitants of this city from being imposed upon by a spurious currency…I think it much safer to go upon the hard money system altogether. I have examined the Constitution upon this subject and find my doubts removed. Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its [the Illinois Legislature] laws, which are unconstitutional? No! We will make a law for gold and silver; and then the state law ceases and we can collect our debts. Powers not delegated to the states or reserved from the states are constitutional. The Constitution acknowledges that the people have all power not reserved to itself…This is the doctrine of the Constitution, so help me God. The Constitution provides to regulate bodies of men and not individuals.” – Feb. 25, 1843. — Documentary History of the Church 5:289-290

    Federal Reserve Notes today are “spurious currency”.

    Today Americans call Federal Reserve Notes “dollars” when they are not dollars but only “notes” also known as “Promises to pay dollars.” Here is a letter I received from U.S. Senator Ensign concerning dollars and Federal Reserve Notes. This will help you understand “your awful situation.” http://www.freedom-school.com/money/senator-john-ensign-office-reply.pdf

    Here is a quote from a letter I received from the Deputy Director of the U.S. Mint concerning the Silver Dollars CURRENTLY being minted since 1986 AD by the United States:

    “1. Congress has established $1 as the legal-tender value for these coins, which is their nominal face value or monetary value. See 31 U.S.C. Sec. 5112(e)(4). Congress specifies this $1 denomination for the coin based on its authority to regulate the value of coins under Article 1, section 8, clause 5 of the United States Constitution.”
    See http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5112

    It currently costs about 35 Federal Reserve Notes to obtain a single legal tender silver dollar. More on this at: http://www.independentamerican.org/2012/06/05/praise-the-lord-and-pass-the-tax-exempt-status/

    This means that BEFORE you have to file a 1040 tax return that you must, if you are married, make over 600,000 Federal Reserve Notes to meet the Filing Requirement of 19,000 “DOLLARS.”

    “Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its laws, which are unconstitutional? No!”

    I decided 34 years ago that I would eschew Communism and Socialism. It is hard but I fear no evil as I walk in the valley of the shadow of death because I am protected by my loving Heavenly Father because:

    1 Nephi 17:50 And I said unto them: If God had commanded me to do all things I could do them. If he should command me that I should say unto this water, be thou earth, it should be earth; and if I should say it, it would be done.

    I was commanded by God to eschew Communism and Socialism. It was easier than commanding the Ocean to be dry land to obey that LDS doctrine.

  16. Catherine,

    You seem to disbelieve that the Social security number could be bad because you cannot do many things in this country without one. I agree that it is very difficult to “live a normal life” without one and I do have one. But I am still concerned that the ss# may in fact be the mark of the beast referred to in Rev 13 verses 16-17 specifically because it is so very hard to buy or sell without the mark of the beast, I mean without the ss#.

    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    The reference to the number being in your right hand or in your forehead is troubling, but it may simply have reference to the fact that whenever you are asked for your social security #, you do one of two things. You either retrieve your card and present the number held in your hand, or you recite from memory the number stored in your brain. The alternative explanation is that some day the govt will literally insert some sort of device such as an RFID card into the hand or the forehead of every person. That explanation does sound a little far-fetched even for the most oppressive govt which is why I wonder if in fact the ss# doesn’t meet all the criteria to fulfill the prophecy of John the Revelator. Also perplexing is the corollary statement in Revelations that the righteous will have God’s name written in their foreheads. This again seems unlikely to be a tattoo or RFID chip and seems more likely to something in our mind rather than something physical.

    Now, as to your concerns about President Bush not being expected to follow BOM war counsel. It is a mark of the moral decay of our people and of our leaders that we do not have good leaders who seek and find the will of the Lord before doing something as drastic as starting a war which leaves a million dead Iraquis, or before starting economic sanctions which result in the deaths of an estimated 500,000 children. Do you find that unfathomable? Research it. That is the number of kids that died in Iraq as a result of US sanctions against that country in the time interval between the first and 2nd Gulf Wars against Iraq. When questioned about that on national TV, Madelaine Albright said, something to the effect of, “The cost, we think, was worth it.” And that hideously infamous and unChristian reply was played on TV all over the Muslim world. Yes, they have good reason to hate us, and not because we’re “rich and free.” That is complete BS propaganda meant to rouse the American people to fear and anger so that they will waste their blood and gold (paper actually) in the desert sands.

    I did not support that decision, and you may not have. But there are many that did and still do. And some day, those birds will come home to roost and this nation will pay in blood for it’s perfidy. We are now , as a nation, being weighed in the divine balance, and at some point, when God deems that this nation is ripened in iniquity, His justice will be felt. I feel as Thomas Jefferson did when he said (regarding slavery) “I tremble for my country when I consider that God is just and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

    Shane Baker

  17. Dear Shane,

    Here is some spice for your thoughts on the SSN as the Mark of the Beast. AFTER I decided that the Social Security Number was either the Mark of the Beast or the precursor to it I was told (Spiritually) that the SSN would SOON be tied to the number 666 so as to confirm my beliefs.

    Within a few years Congress gave us the following:
    Read 42 USC Section 666(a)(13)(A)
    http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/42/7/IV/D/666

    (13) Recording of social security numbers in certain family
    matters. – Procedures requiring that the social security number
    of –
    (A) any applicant for a professional license, driver’s
    license, occupational license, recreational license, or
    marriage license be recorded on the application;

    This is the law that forced the States to use the SSN on ALL licenses to buy or sell issued by a State of the Union. It also makes you give the State government the SSN to have a driver’s license or marriage license or even a hunting or fishing license. So in order to get permission from the government to buy or sell you must give them a Social Security Numbers as per Section 666.

    That law was passed AFTER I wrote the following:

    John the Revelator foresaw fierce looking beasts which represent tyrannical earthly governments controlled by Satan (Rev. 13: 16 & 17)

    And he (the Beast) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    The Social Security number marks us just as certainly as if it was in our right hand or in our foreheads. Please note that the scripture says “in” and not on. A brand, tattoo or a ring would be considered on our hand not “in” our hand yet when we hold something it is referred to as being “in” your hand. Who does not have to show their Social Security card and hold it “in” their hand when applying for a job or to get a bank account? And who does not know their number by heart having it “in” their “forehead” so they may quote it upon demand by the government.

    Many people also assume that the number must be 666 and that is not their Social Security Number so they fail to recognize it as the “Mark of the Beast.” The scripture says, “and his (the Beast’s) number is six hundred three score and six (666).” The scripture does not even say that the mark that we must carry is 666 for that is the number of HIS name. We will be marked by a “mark” OR “the name of the beast” OR “the number of his name.” The true identifying quality of the “Mark” is that it must restrict buying and selling or in other words the ability to earn a living (selling our products or our labor) or to obtain that which we need (buying) in order to survive.

    Read the whole article at: http://www.sovereignfellowship.com/tos/2.1/#sub2

    Since I decided to eschew socialism I have felt the protection of ministering angels. There is NO WAY that I could have made it without help from above.

    We even had to go to court to get my son the right to vote without a Social Security Number.
    http://www.wnd.com/1998/10/3391/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/1998/oct/07/teen-balks-at-social-security-number-may-not-be-ab/
    http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/1998/Oct-18-Sun-1998/opinion/8417006.html

  18. Chains we put on ourselves

    In U.S. v. Lee the government argued that the Amish had to pay Social Security taxes because although it was a religious belief to care for the poor it was not a religious belief not to ALSO pay taxes for the support of the poor. The Court ruled it could not decide what the Religious beliefs of the Amish were but…

    The preliminary inquiry in determining the existence of a constitutionally required exemption is whether the payment of social security taxes and the receipt of benefits interferes with the free exercise rights of the Amish. The Amish believe that there is a religiously based obligation to provide for their fellow members the kind of assistance contemplated by the social security system. Although the Government does not challenge the sincerity of this belief, the Government does contend that payment of social security taxes will not threaten the integrity of the Amish religious belief or observance. U.S. v. Lee 455 U.S. 252, 256, 257, 102 S.Ct. 1051, 1055 (U.S.Pa.,1982)
    But that is exactly what we LDS Christians believe. That Socialism does threaten the integrity of LDS religious belief and observance.

    Quote:
    Personal unrighteousness can lead toward a welfare state. What is the real cause of this trend toward the welfare state, toward more socialism? In the last analysis, in my judgment, it is personal unrighteousness. When people do not use their freedoms responsibly and righteously, they will gradually lose these freedoms.

    Quote:
    A man will not recognize the inequalities around him and voluntarily, through the gospel plan, come to the aid of his brother, he will find that through “a democratic process” he will be forced to come to the aid of his brother. The government will take from the “haves” and give to the “have nots.” Both have lost their freedom. Those who “have,” lost their freedom to give voluntarily of their own free will and in the way they desire. Those who “have not,” lost their freedom because they did not earn what they received. They got “something for nothing,” and they will neither appreciate the gift nor the giver of the gift. Teachings of Howard W Hunter pg 169 Publisher: Bookcraft (1997)

    GOT THAT! You loss your freedom by paying the tax and/or receiving the alleged benefit. Grant, Taylor, McKay, Benson, Faust, Romney, Clark, Hinckley, and Monson have all said the SAME THING!

    Look what happens to a 1992 ruling with just slight changes so it includes LDS beliefs: “It also gives insufficient recognition to the real conflict of conscience faced by a [Latter-day Saint] who would have to choose whether to miss [heaven] or conform to the state-sponsored practice in an environment where the risk of compulsion is especially high. (see Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 595 (1992))

    MISS HEAVEN? That’s right!

    “Let us work for what we need. Let us be self-reliant and independent. Salvation can be obtained on no other principle. Salvation is an individual matter, and we must work out our own salvation in temporal as well as in spiritual things.” http://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/01/becoming-self-reliant?lang=eng

    Quote:
    The voices I hear are persuasive, seductive, fascinating, and confusing. Speaking across the earth, they are part of a mighty battle that is being waged for the minds of men. They are aimed at persuasion in political philosophy. There are voices of democracy competing with voices of communism, and each is winning converts according to the discernment and the judgment of listeners. The stakes are high, the weapons are sophisticated, the methods are clever. (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, p. 407)

    And what are the weapons? Well the prophets answered that one too:

    Quote:
    The chief weapon used by the federal government to achieve this equality is through so-called transfer payments. This is a term that simply means that the federal government collects from one income group and transfers payments to another by the tax system. These payments are made in the form of Social Security benefits, housing subsidies, Medicaid, food stamps, to name a few. President Ezra Taft Benson, 1987 AD

    The Prophet said that Communism is not merely and economic program but a total philosophy of life. A totally philosophy of life is a religion.

    Quote:
    Can communism, socialism, fascism, the so-called welfare state, or any other coercive system provide these priceless blessings which flow to us as a part of our American way of life? The common denominator of all these systems is the curtailment of individual liberty.
    May I assure you that communism is not merely an economic program. It is a total philosophy of life, atheistic and utterly opposed to all we hold dear as a great Christian nation. While we might effectively bridle or destroy every so-called communist within our own borders, we shall not vanquish this political virus, and its common forerunner, state socialism, so long as people are determined to achieve security through state-imposed materialistic schemes rather than through righteous living and wholesome activity as free men. So Shall Ye Reap, Ezra Taft Benson 1960

    Elder Ezra Taft Benson stated: We must keep the people informed that collectivism, another word for socialism, is a part of the communist strategy. Communism is essentially socialism.

    In General Conference, October 1951, President David O. McKay stated: At heart communism is atheistic, and fascism is equally antagonistic to freedom and to other Christian principles—even denying the divinity of Jesus Christ and the existence of God.

    Letter to the Federal Gov. by the First Presidency:
    As God’s children all, and as brothers and sisters in Christ, we must as a matter of spiritual responsibility and pursuant to positive divine command care for the helpless, the unfortunate, and the needy. Furthermore, it is essentially a neighbor to neighbor obligation. It is not a function of civil government. This is fundamental…. Viewing all of these things it will be easy for you to understand that the Church has not found it possible to follow along the lines of the present general tendency in the matter of property rights, taxes, the curtailment of rights and liberties of the people, nor in general the economic policies of what is termed the “New Deal”. … This we feel we can definitely say, that unless the people of America forsake the sins and the errors, political and otherwise, of which they are now guilty and return to the practice of the great fundamental principles of Christianity, and of Constitutional government, there will be no exaltation for them spiritually, and politically we shall lose our liberty and free institutions…. The Church as a Church does not believe in war and yet since its organization whenever war has come we have done our part…. we do thoroughly believe in building up our home defenses to the maximum extent necessary, but we do not believe that aggression should be carried on in the name and under the false cloak of defense. We therefore look with sorrowing eyes at the present use to which a great part of the funds being raised by taxes and by borrowing is being put.…We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution, and would set up such a reign of terror as exists now in many parts of Europe. We confess to you that it has not been possible for us to unify our own people even upon the necessity of such a turning about, and therefore we cannot unfortunately, and we say it regretfully, make any practical suggestion to you as to how the nation can be turned about. Faithfully yours, /s/ Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay. (First Presidency letter to U.S. Treasury, September 30, 1941 AD)

    “How can sons and daughters… agree to a scheme [Social Security?] which would make their fathers and mothers the objects of public organizations that help the poor and cast the burden of their support on the community and stigmatize them with the loss of independence and self-respect.” President Monson, First Presidency Message, Guiding Principles of Personal and Family Welfare 1986 AD

    Why are members not applying for exemptions from Social Security taxation using as OUR weapon against THEIR weapon the Religious Freedom Restoration Act that had the 100% OFFICIAL support by the Church leadership?

    Quote:
    Here the Government’s argument for uniformity is different; it rests not so much on the particular statutory program at issue as on slippery-slope concerns that could be invoked in response to any RFRA claim for an exception to a generally applicable law. The Government’s argument echoes the classic rejoinder of bureaucrats throughout history: If I make an exception for you, I’ll have to make one for everybody, so no exceptions. But RFRA operates by mandating consideration, under the compelling interest test, of exceptions to “rule[s] of general applicability.” 42 U.S.C. § 2000bb-1(a). Congress determined that the legislated test “is a workable test for striking sensible balances between religious liberty and competing prior governmental interests.” § 2000bb(a)(5). This determination finds support in our cases; in Sherbert, for example, we rejected a slippery-slope argument similar to the one offered in this case, dismissing as “no more than a possibility” the State’s speculation “that the filing of fraudulent claims by unscrupulous claimants feigning religious objections to Saturday work” would drain the unemployment benefits fund. 374 U.S., at 407, 83 S.Ct. 1790….

    We do not doubt that there may be instances in which a need for uniformity precludes the recognition of exceptions to generally applicable laws under RFRA. But it would have been surprising to find that this was such a case, given the longstanding exemption from the Controlled Substances Act for religious use of peyote, and the fact that the very reason Congress enacted RFRA was to respond to a decision denying a claimed right to sacramental use of a controlled substance. See 42 U.S.C. § 2000bb(a)(4). And in fact the Government has not offered evidence demonstrating that granting the UDV an exemption would cause the kind of administrative harm recognized as a compelling interest in Lee, Hernandez, and Braunfeld. The Government failed to convince the District Court at the preliminary injunction hearing that health or diversion concerns provide a compelling interest in banning the UDV’s sacramental use of hoasca. It cannot compensate for that failure now with the bold argument that there can be no RFRA exceptions at all to the Controlled Substances Act. See Tr. of Oral Arg. 17 (Deputy Solicitor General statement that exception could not be made even for “rigorously policed” use of “one drop” of substance “once a year”).

    Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal 546 U.S. 418, 435-437, 126 S.Ct. 1211, 1223 – 1224 (U.S.,2006)

    And if you use the RFRA you are expected to prevail!

    Quote:
    We reasoned that “[a]s the Government bears the burden of proof on the ultimate question of [the challenged Act’s] constitutionality, respondents [the movants] must be deemed likely to prevail unless the Government has shown that respondents’ proposed less restrictive alternatives are less effective than [enforcing the Act].”

    Gonzales v. O Centro Espirita Beneficente Uniao do Vegetal 546 U.S. 418, 429, 126 S.Ct. 1211, 1219 (U.S.,2006)

    Quote:
    [T]o demonstrate a compelling interest and show that it has adopted the least restrictive means of achieving that interest is the most demanding test known to constitutional law. If “ ‘compelling interest’ really means what it says …, many laws will not meet the test…. [The test] would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind.”City of Boerne v. Flores 521 U.S. 507, 534, 1997 AD

    Live FREE or DIE!

  19. sincere question here: what i would like to know….does anyone know….does our prophet (and our apostles) have a social security number and does he pay taxes?

  20. I have a sincere question in return. When the people of Israel rejected God and demanded a king what did the Prophet Samuel do?

    Have American LDS rejected the words of the prophets on eschewing Socialism? So what do the Apostles have to do? Same as the prophet in the days of king Saul?

    Your salvation is not decided by what the Apostles do. It is decided by what you do. A slothful servant is disobedient to God.

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